Inside Level: How Nichole Rouillac is Creating Meaningful, Inclusive Design

Chris Whyte (: 00:05

Hello and welcome to Why Design? The podcast where we explore the stories behind the founders and senior leaders shaping the world of physical product development. I'm Chris Whyte your host and founder of Kodu a recruitment company dedicated exclusively to physical product development. Over the past decade, I've had the privilege of interviewing remarkable people in this space and their incredible stories inspired me to create this podcast.

In each episode, we dive into the journeys, insights and lessons from founders and design leaders driving innovation in people and planet friendly hardware. So let's get started.

Chris Whyte (: 00:38

Today I'm joined by Nicole Ruak, founder and creative director of Level.

Today I'm joined by Nicole Ruac, founder and creative director of Level, a woman-led industrial design studio based in San Francisco. Nicole's career spans over two decades.

Today I'm joined by Nicole Ruac, founder and creative director of Level, a woman-led industrial design studio based in San Francisco. Nicole's career spans over two decades, working with big names like Microsoft, Google, and HTC. She played a key role in designing the first Fitbit and has helped launch groundbreaking products across wearables, healthcare, and consumer tech. In this episode, Nicole opens up about the challenges of being one of the only women in the room

In this episode, Nicole opens up about the challenges of being one of the only women in the room early in her career and why so many women leave industrial design before reaching senior roles. We also dive into her passion for healthcare design from disease detection to cutting edge med tech innovations and how being a mom to neurodivergent child inspires her unique approach to creating meaningful people-centered products.

We also dive into our passion for healthcare design, from disease detection to cutting edge med tech innovations, and how being a mom to a neurodivergent child inspires her unique approach to creating meaningful people-centered products. This is a powerful conversation about resilience, innovation, and the impact of inclusive design. So let's get started.

Today I'm joined by Nicole Ruac, founder and creative director of Level, a woman-led industrial design studio based in San Francisco. Nicole's career spans over two decades, working with big names like Microsoft, Google, and HTC. She played a key role in designing the first Fitbit and has helped launch groundbreaking products across wearables, healthcare, and consumer tech. In this episode, Nicole opens up about the challenges of being one of the only women in the room early in her career.

and why so many women leave industrial design before reaching senior roles. We also dive into her passion for healthcare design, from disease detection to cutting edge med tech innovations, and how being a mom to a neurodivergent child inspires her unique approach to creating meaningful people-centered products. This is a powerful conversation about resilience, innovation, and the impact of inclusive design. So let's get started.

Chris Whyte (: 03:11

Nicole, welcome to Why Design. Thanks so much for making the time to join me.

Nichole Rouillac (: 03:14

Thank you.

Thanks for having me, Chris. I'm really excited to be able to have this conversation.

Chris Whyte (: 03:20

Yeah, likewise. So I've really been looking forward to this. Your journey has been so layered. There's so much we can unpack. So firstly, let's start with Level, your studio, which has now been running for over eight years. And you're doing some work with big names like Microsoft and Google. But what really stood out from our conversation preparing for this, Nicole, is how intentional you've been about keeping it small, balancing life and making meaningful designs.

And during our prep call, you mentioned the challenge of being one of the only women in the room earlier in your career and the patterns that you've noticed about how many women in industrial design end up being sidelined into roles like strategy or CMF and often away from core ID work. So I'd love to unpack that with you. And then there's your healthcare design work, things like disease detection and cancer treatment, which must feel incredibly impactful, even if, you said, you're squeamish at the sight of blood.

Throw in the perspective you've gained as a designer mom raising a neurodivergent child. And it's clear that there's quite a of depth to how your approach will work. So I'd love to unpack all that with you. And I'll start with this question, looking back, Nicole, why design? What first sparked your interest in design?

Nichole Rouillac (: 04:38

Well, I've been designing since the earliest memories that I have. When I was a kid, I used to just take

lot of things in build by hand. think I was naturally like into three dimensional geometries as a young child. So my parents used to have a lot of empty boxes of soda and lots of cardboard. you know, other kids, other girls my age were playing with dolls, but I was just building the houses and built when I talk about building houses out of cardboard, they were thoroughly detailed. used to draw out all of the wallpaper, build the staircases, the furniture, every bit that went inside. So

I of didn't spend that much time with the doll, but I did a lot of building. My dad also had like, not super fancy, but a wood shop in the garage. And so there was lots of tools and nails and boards. And I was just constantly like putting things together and assembling. So I think from, I don't know, really like three, four years old, I was just creating and never stopped. I just knew it in my heart that that was just like the thing that made me happy and content.

Chris Whyte (: 05:21

Hahaha.

That's awesome.

Nichole Rouillac (: 05:47

and what I wanted to do all day long every day. So somehow I managed to, through many years, turn that into a career where I could just then, you know, as much of my time building as possible.

Chris Whyte (: 05:59

That's awesome. I'm listening to Creativity Inc. I think one of the other guests on the show recommended that. And there's a lot of synergy there. I don't know if you've read or listened to the book. It's about the formation of Pixar. I'm only like two chapters in and I'm hooked. It's incredible. that kind of knowing from that early age, having that kind of like...

Nichole Rouillac (: 06:17

Hmm.

Chris Whyte (: 06:28

vision of what you wanted to do and what you enjoyed doing and carrying that through. I think that's fairly rare. think a lot of people fall into their profession and then fall into love with it. But to know from that early age is wonderful.

Nichole Rouillac (: 06:32

Yeah.

Yeah, it was

hard for my parents to get me to like stop building so that I would like eat dinner or go to school.

Chris Whyte (: 06:47

Was

there any architecture in your family then, you're building essentially little architectural models? No.

Nichole Rouillac (: 06:56

None at all. I didn't,

I grew up on the outskirts of Chicago, just on the edge of cornfields. And there was not a single person that I knew in my family or in the town that I lived in that did anything creative for their career. So a lot of people were in various business degrees, insurance, have a lot of family that are nurses, know, jobs that are just considered more typical for where I grew up. So.

When I told my family that I wanted to go to art school and that I wanted to be a designer, they were like, absolutely no way. This is not a job. This is not a career. You're going to go into a profession where we know you can earn a living because we don't want you to be a poor starving artist living on our sofa for the rest of your life. But I didn't listen very well, so I still made my way to design school and followed what I knew was in me to do.

Chris Whyte (: 07:44

Ha

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 07:55

But those were not always the easiest conversations, especially when there was literally nobody that we knew that did anything creative or professional work.

Chris Whyte (: 08:05

So was it always the intention was to go to art school and then, because you studied industrial and product design according to LinkedIn. So was art then the route into, or when did you kind of discover that ID was a thing?

Nichole Rouillac (: 08:10

Yeah.

Actually, because of these debates with my parents, I initially went to junior college near my family's house just because we had a lot of conflict about what I would be pursuing in my future. And actually in that junior college, I was doing a lot of just trying to get all my general education classes out of the way before going to art school. And then through that, I was also taking some classes in the art department there.

think one of the teachers I was really lucky, recognized how much I was working three dimensionally and how much I sculpting as well as drawing and other things. And so he was the one that was going through various options and kind of got me into industrial design, made me aware that this field even existed through some of the catalogs that they had for various art schools and universities. I got to understand the programs and what people did.

there weren't a ton of schools where I grew up in Chicago. So that's when I just started looking elsewhere and also had been dreaming to go to California. Where my family lives is right on a highway I-80, which goes all the way from East to West. So, you know, I was like, I know if I just keep taking this road, I'm gonna go to San Francisco. And someday I'm just gonna keep going. And that's what I did.

Chris Whyte (: 09:40

hehe

Well, there's certainly a metaphor there in terms of just following your path and just in the process, I suppose you'll get to your destination eventually. So that's awesome. So talk us through your kind of your early career then what were some of the pivotal or standout moments for you that, you know, looking back really shape who you are today as both a designer and a business leader.

Nichole Rouillac (: 10:10

Yeah, I'd say one of the earliest positions that I took was working at a studio called New Deal Design. I was there for a number of years. And, you know, at that time they were still pretty young and small, but one of the up and coming and have known agencies in the Bay. And I was lucky to be there at a time of great growth and we had some really incredible clients.

And I learned a lot. I met my husband there, some of my best friends that I still keep in touch with, you know, some of my kind of design family that's still around. So I really enjoyed those moments. But I would say that one of the things that really stands out is getting to work on the very first Fitbit when I was there. That was just the team of two founders and, you know, they had a few engineers work.

Chris Whyte (: 10:58

That's pretty cool.

Nichole Rouillac (: 11:04

contractors working in the background, but to have them come in with a new chip called an accelerometer, which is something that hadn't existed. Now they're in everything, but that was the early days. Getting to sort of re-envision, pedometers existed before then, but they were really chunky, chunky, massive, really medical looking devices that people would wear on their...

Chris Whyte (: 11:13

What's this?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 11:33

arms. You know, we got to start from scratch with a Blink Canvas and, you know, see this startup that, you know, one of the early startups that really like made it, created a whole new category of what back then was called the quantitative self. We sort of forgotten that tagline, but, you know, has really changed, transformed things now, you know, lots of people still wearing their Apple watches, et cetera, but.

Chris Whyte (: 11:45

Yeah.

Wow, yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 11:59

The whole idea of like tracking your health and movement and activity and food, you know, it really started back then. So I think that's when I got the little itch. It's just like building startups from scratch and how exciting it is when you get to help with a new technology, whether that's like a new chip or a really clunky prototype, and you get to be the ones that create the consumer face of that and what that new experience is going to be like for people. And seeing that really

Chris Whyte (: 11:59

Mm-hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 12:29

get out there into the world and help people. That's what really started it off for me and just never stopped from there.

Chris Whyte (: 12:37

Yeah,

it's big business now, isn't it? The of the wearables, especially the fitness kind of products. I mean, at CES, you you couldn't kind of move 10 feet without seeing something that was kind of tracking kind of some kind of bodily function, at least. Or your heart rate, whether it be a ring or a watch, or in some cases, know, headband and all sorts of stuff. So, yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 12:53

Yeah.

Yeah,

for good and bad, like anything, I think there's now become maybe too much. making too many things. They're not all of great quality and caliber. So I think especially when you see that at CES, you realize we could definitely cut back a bit. But there are technologies there that are still helping people to stay fit and healthy and live better lives.

Chris Whyte (: 13:11

Yeah.

Hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 13:29

I felt the same having worked on some of the very first smartphones that also made their way into people's hands. And I think the technology has been amazing in changing the way that we communicate and work and connect with people, but also at the same time equally creates a lot of isolations and distractions. so I do like to look at the tech. am at...

Chris Whyte (: 13:33

Hmm.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 13:56

high tech enthusiasts and care about bringing the tech that's going to help people, but also equally questioning what needs to be made.

Chris Whyte (: 14:06

Yeah, massively. So you were at New Deal, weren't you, for kind of three and a half years or so? And it says here from November 2006 up until March 2010. So right at the time where the iPhone was just coming onto the scene, wasn't it 2007? I think that was. And you were right there at the beginning. How challenging was that then having kind of Apple basically coming onto the market at the same

Nichole Rouillac (: 14:12

Thank you.

Okay.

Chris Whyte (: 14:34

same time as your design in this stuff. Did you really pay attention to that at the time or what kind of impact did that have on you?

Nichole Rouillac (: 14:43

Yeah, I mean, we were definitely excited and have always been an enthusiast of Apple and what they were doing. I think as I saw how much that was going to be transforming our future of communication, it got me really excited about working in that category. And just at that same moment was when HTC had...

acquired One and Co. So One and Co. was also one of the predominant ID studios in San Francisco in that era. And I was lucky enough to get hired also at a time when the recession was starting. I felt so lucky I was able to shift into a new position at One and Co. And having just gotten acquired by a global leader in smartphones.

Chris Whyte (: 15:23

Okay cool, yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 15:37

for those of you that don't remember, but HTC is the company behind bringing some of the very first, bringing the very first Android and Windows phones into the world too. So was sort of the bigger competitor of Apple. Before Samsung and others started to really get in, they were working with Google to bring all the first Android phones. So I loved it. I still worked at a small studio that was based in San Francisco, where I loved, but with HTC I got to,

Chris Whyte (: 15:43

Yeah.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 16:06

go overseas, spend a lot of time in Asia, working with manufacturers on this transformative technology, but also learning the ins and outs of what it takes to really get a product out into the world. I learned a ton. HTC also had the designers going out and doing the sales and marketing meetings. So I was presenting in front of the executive teams at Verizon and AT &T.

Chris Whyte (: 16:19

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 16:35

and Vodafone and Orange and like going to Europe to the various carriers and then getting things made all the way through the factory lines. So it was like full spectrum of what it takes to also being part of the PR and launch campaigns, which was really the fun side. So yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 16:49

Yeah.

great

exposure isn't it still relatively early on in your career you know and you still got that kind of consultancy vibe but then you've got all the benefits of the full kind of to market and the manufacturing side and then you know the suppliers the customers the phone companies it's yeah it's it's great and it's it I'm guessing that's kind of

Nichole Rouillac (: 16:58

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 17:23

giving you that confidence, giving you that kind of, it's really adding another kind of, excuse the plonk, level to kind of your design, hasn't it, really? Because that is one of the flaw and one of the, when I'm speaking to people who work for design consultancies and they have done for a long time, one of the reasons why they might be looking to leave is, you know, that they don't get to the end, they get to a point and then they have to hand their design over. They never get a satisfying conclusion of seeing the-

Nichole Rouillac (: 17:30

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 17:50

the stuff made or being involved in the manufacturing process. And it can also be a limitation of a lot of design consultants where they don't have that experience in-house that, you know, it might be the missing thing or might be why they don't get the next bit of the project and it goes to a competitor. So you having that full cycle experience, I imagine gives several quite a quite distinct advantage in the market.

Nichole Rouillac (: 18:15

Yeah. I will also say, I think for designers, it can be really frustrating when you like work on something so passionately and love the design. And yeah, I think the early wave of my industrial design career was just like handed over and you get to see what happens when it's on the store shelf. but sometimes your design has just been ripped to pieces and you can hardly recognize it anymore. You're just like, what, what happened? It's so.

Chris Whyte (: 18:42

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 18:43

so hard to go through that as a designer. So when it got to be in-house at HTC, I was like, this is what happens. Things can't be manufactured in that way, parts aren't available and they have to change some of the component architecture, all the various things that can happen, or they just don't put the time into having.

Chris Whyte (: 18:52

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 19:10

a

designer go overseas to make sure every little bit of the color material and finishes matches perfectly. But getting exposed to that and also with a company that really cared about seeing through the finish line, like beautifully, just taught me like what I wanted to do as a designer and to like not hand things off so much. Sometimes with bigger corporations, with internal teams that we really trust and we know they're great. There will be

Chris Whyte (: 19:15

Hehehe.

Hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 19:40

be always some amount of work that has to be handed off. But at level, do try to make sure that the clients that we are working with are ones that really understand and care about having my team involved as we go past the industrial design intent, but all the way through the design for manufacturing process. We even have clients that are so great. They're even willing to send our designers to the factories to check that everything

Chris Whyte (: 20:07

That's awesome.

Nichole Rouillac (: 20:09

is there to be on all the late night phone calls with engineers and manufacturers to make sure that the compromises that have to be made are the right ones and that we're there to really stand behind the integrity of the design and make sure that it's still going to be a great experience. So I think we're really lucky that some of the products that come out of the studio and our

Chris Whyte (: 20:20

Mm-hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 20:33

doing really well and the success of our clients is because they let us continue to be a part of the design for manufacturing process.

Chris Whyte (: 20:41

Yeah, you're partners, aren't you? Not kind of design at arm's length. You're fully integrated into that project and that business. So that's wonderful.

Nichole Rouillac (: 20:45

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I

also note on that, like working with a lot of startups, I think that's where it's really important because I can have done that on the corporate side, but with startups, they don't always know what they don't know and they don't know where things can go wrong. And so I do really try to be that guide that like along their side, holding their hand through some, know, usually making their first piece of hardware. Even in the design process, making sure that we're thinking ahead of like

Chris Whyte (: 21:02

Hmm.

Hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 21:19

what's going to be challenging and how do we make sure that they can actually get the product out there without running out of money because as a startup you have to make sure they don't go belly up. That you're designing practically for them and really with them in mind and not just your ego and what you want to make as a designer.

Chris Whyte (: 21:40

massively, massively. And yeah, I mean, I've worked with a lot of startups as well. And I've been in the space for a long time and I see it time and time again, you have these wonderful ideas and these founders are full of energy and they've got a brilliant idea. But then actually they haven't had the real world experience of making stuff. So they're often they're often doing everything for the first time and figuring out as they go along. it could be a very expensive kind of kind of learning exercise, if you like, to get stuff where it's

On the surface, consultancy of any kind of flavor might seem expensive in isolation, but when you think of getting to the result quicker and the money and time and energy you save to get there. And plus, when you're working with someone like yourself, Nicole, you've got all of that experience that they could just learn from as well, just by being in the room and around it. I always say to startup founders, if you can get

good consultancy to partner with or at get someone with some grey hairs in as one of your kind of strategic hires. Someone that's kind of got the energy but also they've got the scars, they know where the mistakes have been made previously so that they can get you to the result quicker. that's awesome. Well wanted to talk about your involvement with IDSA as well. I think that's how we would put into context as well probably to

Nichole Rouillac (: 22:44

Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 23:08

Lea Stewart and maybe Christy Bartlett as well. And I spoke to a bunch of people from IDSA or associated with it and especially the women in design. So you chaired that for some time, didn't you?

Nichole Rouillac (: 23:22

For about four years in kind of the early days of Level before I had my second child and needed to focus on that and my business. I put the passion into it when I could and I still am involved, but I had to step down as chair after four years. I loved it so much, being a part of the women design community. And it was at a time where we really were like building up

Chris Whyte (: 23:24

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 23:51

a community and hosting events, bringing people in to have the tough conversations and having other women that could get up and talk about things that were really difficult in their career paths, whether that was growing in their current career path or finding a job, but just all the hurdles and challenges and having a place where you can really talk and put

Chris Whyte (: 24:04

Hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 24:19

your heart out to others and get the support. It was just, I think, something that so many women were looking for. So we saw, you know, a lot of growth. I'm really proud of the women we were able to help. I wish I could help every single one of them out there to find their way on their career path. But we, I think, did really help to put some systems and programs in place so that even when I stepped down that there

Chris Whyte (: 24:34

Yeah

Nichole Rouillac (: 24:48

continuing on today to do a lot of that programming. the one thing I'm the most proud of is the mentorship program that we created. I just remember being at one of the events and hearing a woman say that internally at the company she was at, she was the only woman she had seen sometimes, like some of her male colleagues alongside her were getting, know, taken under somebody's wing and getting a bit more like,

training and getting a lot of advice. But when she was trying to get the same, it was just a little bit more awkward. It was just not happening as easily for her. And that was the spark that told me I think women might need those mentors outside of their current organizations to be able to grow. So we started the mentorship program. It's a lot of manual labor.

especially when we would sometimes have 200 applicants to find the mentor and the mentee that had just the same interests to find those matches. But I also now know an engineer I'm working with is actually building an AI software to automate some of that. So I think we'll be able to grow the program even further, but just the number of women who have come to us, myself and my...

Chris Whyte (: 25:46

Yeah.

Mm.

cool. Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 26:13

my team after the mentorship programs and said how much it really transformed their career. Those are the things that almost bring tears to my eyes when I would read them.

Chris Whyte (: 26:23

It's truly heartwarming isn't it when something that you put in place kind of yields such positive results. That's wonderful. can you give any kind of specific examples of where you know some of the really really highlights of where it's changed someone's kind of career or had that positive impact?

Nichole Rouillac (: 26:45

I mean, there were women that told me that they got jobs, that they got promotions, that they actually figured out what was the right area to go into for them. it opened up, I've heard a number of those different, know, women feedback. We would do kind of follow up events or kind of closing events after a few months mentorship program.

There were so many of those.

Chris Whyte (: 27:18

Okay, how does it work? And so I'm good from what you're saying, I'm imagining you have like a cohort, you have your meetups, and then is it you pair pair up a mentor and a mentee and then what they meet kind of fairly regularly, like weekly or monthly?

Nichole Rouillac (: 27:34

It's supposed to be weekly or bi-weekly, and it's usually about a three-month period that we do that. And we would get kind of specific. mean, was one time there was a young designer who was interested in ceramics, and somebody that had applied that was a bit more senior level actually had a pretty niche in industrial design to have that kind of narrow of a focus. But we were able to do that.

Chris Whyte (: 27:35

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay.

Hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 28:01

Sometimes there were people that were interested in even like design operations, CMF, as well as just figuring out if they wanted to be in the consulting or corporate life or what's it like working at a startup. So we would often try to pair those interests when we could align the stars.

Chris Whyte (: 28:21

Yeah. Awesome. That

sounds wonderful. it's, I'm guessing from you could looking at the dates here, you were the chair, did you start women in design or was that something that kind of was already there and you got involved in? Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 28:37

It was already there and I kind of

took off over the torch of somebody else who had been running it. I think I was just lucky, you know, around the time when I took over was when we were seeing, you know, the Women's March and a lot of activism and movement in general. So it was just this period where things were really taking off. So I feel lucky that I got to be chair during that specific moment in time.

Chris Whyte (: 29:01

Yeah.

awesome

and it was about a year ago current way

Nichole Rouillac (: 29:09

Yeah, we were hosting events where we'd have sometimes like 200 people coming to sell out. I we weren't even charging for the tickets, we were at max capacity for our spaces. People were so excited about it. Because beyond the mentorship program, we would also have a topic that we would pick and a group of women that had been working in a certain area that would present projects that they had been.

Chris Whyte (: 29:13

wow.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 29:36

a part of launching and then also of NAS spaces have even little like side areas where, you know, physical hardware that women had been working on creating launching was out for display that we could like talk and they could be there to talk about their projects. So yeah, it was really energizing. was a great time.

Chris Whyte (: 29:47

the end.

I love that. I think the whole

community aspect, it's something that I'm particularly passionate about, but, you know, there's not enough hardware events for one, but then when you niche down into women in hardware, know, women in design, it's even fewer. So to bring people together to share ideas and insights and just, you know, it just enhances the whole industry, I think. So it's great to see.

Nichole Rouillac (: 30:05

if

Chris Whyte (: 30:25

You join that kind of about a year after launching Level. I imagine, and just from my own personal experience launching Kodu like a year ago, having a community when you're such a small kind of business, know, and you're kind of on it on your own, then kind of networking with like-minded founders or people that been through that, you know, it makes, personally, I found it invaluable.

Nichole Rouillac (: 30:28

Mm-hmm.

Chris Whyte (: 30:52

having those little pockets of community of other founders or kind of going out to these hardware meetups. Was that an active decision to get involved because you were running level or I'm guessing it had a positive impact on you and the business regardless.

Chris Whyte (: 31:10

I'm interrupting this episode to share some exciting things happening around Why Design. At the core of this podcast are the incredible design journeys my guests have been on and where they're heading. These journeys stem from the relationships they build, the communities they're part of, and the amazing achievements that come from collaboration. So beyond the podcast, we're hosting regular online huddles and quarterly meetups in the UK with plans underway for an annual gathering in the US.

We're also running hands-on workshops both in person at Makerspaces and online to connect and inspire people in physical product development. So if you'd like to join us or stay in the loop about upcoming events, sign up at teamkodu.com forward slash events or click the link in the show notes. Now back to the episode.

Nichole Rouillac (: 32:00

I mean, I think it fell into line also because of a lot of things that were happening politically at the time. I remember even before I started Level, I had been sitting on the coffee shop outside of the place where I decided, outside of my former studio, where I was having those conversations about like, am I going to quit my job and do this?

Chris Whyte (: 32:06

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 32:25

And I was sitting with a former colleague. I was like, yeah, there's not a single studio in San Francisco that I know of that's run by a woman. I had known some in the past, but you know, at that moment in time, there was, you know, there's a lot of pretty famous known ID studios in the Bay, not one that I could name. And, you know, I was questioning whether starting a studio as a female founder was going to be kind of a

Chris Whyte (: 32:42

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 32:54

a detriment or something that were clients going to challenge us or pay us equally. You know, all of that. What is it going to hold us back in some way? And I was told that I didn't need to worry because we were about to have a female president and we all know that that did not happen. So that was, you know, October 2016.

Chris Whyte (: 32:55

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 33:23

But I still did it. The train was already on the tracks and moving. That's when like the women, you know, going to the women's marches and a lot of things, you know, the energy that was happening, I think because of what was going on politically, it's important to note that that was the period of time. And then at the same moment, IDSA held their first

Chris Whyte (: 33:26

Yeah, once you made your mind up that that was it, you were going weren't you? You're on the highway.

Nichole Rouillac (: 33:53

women in design conference that May, so May 2017. And I went to that and it was really small, 50 women. And, you know, for an organization that was as old as, I do say, it's not surprising that it was 2017 that they had the first one, but it was all, the room just lit up. The women that were there from, you know, people I had admired and been inspired by when I was young in my career that were up there telling their stories.

Chris Whyte (: 34:07

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 34:23

It was, and then other women who were getting up and talking about, you know, their challenges to be there. I just left the event feeling like I need to be a bigger part of this. I'm not just creating an ID studio here, but I want, I really felt like just moved that we weren't just going to be doing industrial design work at a level, but we were going to be trying to make a positive impact on.

a little bit more gender balance in the world of industrial design. And so that's when I took over as chair, just a little bit after that and kind of sought out that opportunity.

Chris Whyte (: 35:01

That's awesome. So cats getting involved here. So I knew it would happen. that was your kind of the moment then, you know, I think everyone has a light bulb moment or kind of a certain point in time where the balance tips and that's it then there's no going back. You've got it. You've made your mind up. So that's awesome. So let's talk about level then. So obviously a brilliant achievement so far. mean,

Nichole Rouillac (: 35:03

you

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Whyte (: 35:31

You've been you've gained some wonderful recognitions, worked with some incredible kind of brands. And I mean, you've got the fast company rankings. You've won some major design awards. And obviously you're very mission led. I can tell that. what's tell us about level and what sets you apart from others in the industry aside from where you talk about the gender balance and the female led. But over to you, really.

Nichole Rouillac (: 36:01

Yeah, a lot of it comes from what we've discussed early in my career, the manufacturing side of the world that I've been exposed to that I really try to bake into a lot of our thinking. will say also, not just being a woman, but I'm also a mom. have two kids and I think that in addition to just being a female leader, it gives us also something that's a little bit different. So I really do bring a lot of that.

Chris Whyte (: 36:04

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 36:30

I think nurturing side and see as a mom into the type of work that we do. But you know, I don't just not opposed to designing baby bottles or strollers or things like that, because it's also good to have perspective on that. you know, we're getting hired to do like really like future forward innovation, technology devices, bringing a whole new tech and

Chris Whyte (: 36:32

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 36:58

experiences into the world that don't exist. So I love being able to bring female perspective into the work we do. Also with that understanding the kind of the technical background and what it takes to really get products made and helping. mean, one of the biggest things I love to do is work with startups from the ground up. My eyes light up when the clunky prototype gets dropped off in our studio and we get to help.

you know, see what the future of this is. most of what we've been working on lately is in, you know, really world changing medical devices, health and wellness, a good amount in sustainability to climate tech. All of these areas where I'm really passionate about, you know, how designers can do something that's bringing products that are going to be better and just change the world in health.

and the future.

Chris Whyte (: 37:59

Yeah, absolutely. And how your personal situation then with obviously being a mom and being a female leader and working with startups, you find that has an influence on the kinds of businesses and people that you tend to end up working with. I mean, do you work with a lot of women kind of in industry as well or, you know, talk about your of your client base in that respect?

Nichole Rouillac (: 38:27

Yeah, it's quite broad. I do say there are a few key female founders and entrepreneurs that I have a really amazing bond with and I'm very excited that I get to be a part of helping them bring their new thing into the world. So I do enjoy that, but there are also many teams that have no female leadership.

but also recognize that they, they need, that voice. So they also hire us to sort of, bring that in. one recently that I can bring up is, next and, the next playground, that we've been a part of, designing the, their very first hardware. and I worked really closely with their full executive leadership team from their CEO to.

Chris Whyte (: 39:02

Yeah, absolutely.

Nichole Rouillac (: 39:25

They're VP of marketing and creative directors. And they're all men, but I think they specifically sought a team because they knew it's not just a gaming console, but it is a new platform that's really gaming for families. And it's all motion-based. So it's meant to get families off the sofa, moving, jumping, playing out and about in real space. But with it going into the home,

Chris Whyte (: 39:45

Cool. Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 39:52

moms are often the deciders and the purchasers of what's going in the home. Especially, know, women make up over 85 % of consumer spending in the US. they have definitely hired us because they were seeking that perspective. And I think I do bring a lot to play there. And they've always been grateful for that, especially as a device that has cameras and sensors that, you know,

Chris Whyte (: 39:54

You

Mm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 40:19

families can be really sensitive around what's there. even the way we treated security on that device, but also made it really fun. And now they've been, they were so successful this holiday season. just had, they couldn't keep products stocked. was flying off the shelves at Target and Best Buy. was like the hot holiday gift for kids, but also probably because they have amazing partnerships like.

Chris Whyte (: 40:20

Yeah.

No way.

Nichole Rouillac (: 40:44

with Peppa Pig and Kung Fu Panda and Barbie, and they just launched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. age group, they're really catering to the moms with kids and I fit the demographic for who was going to be buying the product. And yeah, it's absolutely, it's not a product, it's a tech product, but it's also having that female perspective was really important to that client.

Chris Whyte (: 40:46

Yeah, I know.

That's awesome.

haha

Hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 41:13

But we're often getting hired for that. So products that aren't necessarily, know, or things like that, but really like hardcore technology products, but getting to bring that female perspective and how important it is to our clients is one of the things that really makes us stand out and one of the reasons we get hired by a lot of our clients.

Chris Whyte (: 41:35

Yeah, and, you know, I can definitely resonate with that. mean, most of the companies I speak to when it comes to hiring, you know, they'll always say kind of towards the end of the briefing, I would prefer a woman for this role, because we don't have enough. They seem to just, you know, you get to a certain point in their career and then they drop off the face of the earth, you know, in the UK, at least, know, industrial design is almost 50 50 in terms of the gender balance.

Nichole Rouillac (: 41:49

Thank

Chris Whyte (: 42:03

going into the courses and cook by coming out of the courses but then after a few years they drop off so but they all recognize that you want balance you want kind of female voice and representation and obviously I've been very binary here in terms of the the whole balance but I can't cover everything so let's keep it simple but you know it's the it is a concern in industry and I'm guessing yeah you are as with

because your business with level is, you you can buy that in, you know, it's sure they'd like to get more balance in their their team's long run, but kind of you're there on top available to jump in and offer that insight and deliver great projects. So it's fantastic. But I just want to lead on that because obviously one of the things we spoke about prior to the recording this was you've been quite vocal about the under-representation of women in industrial design as well. So

Why do you think that so many women leave the field before reaching senior roles? And if it's not too big a question, you know, what can we do to change that?

Nichole Rouillac (: 43:13

Yeah, I mean, it is a big question, I would say. I didn't mention it earlier when we were talking about the women in design and sharing with IDSA, but that was one of the big drivers because I was, you know, at that point, not just starting my studio, but also thinking back to the places I had worked in the past and how I had worked with so many amazing women, you know, from early on in my career.

Chris Whyte (: 43:15

you

Nichole Rouillac (: 43:39

and also seen so many of them drop out of the industry. And it is a huge challenge. I would say for me, I worked in some amazing and very supportive environments where I really got put on the right path and celebrated and all the support I needed. But I've also have worked and I have known many women who have worked in some places that are pretty toxic, just very brutal cultures.

Chris Whyte (: 44:05

No.

Nichole Rouillac (: 44:09

that just the number of women have been talked down to and treated in ways that, you know, they end up just like crying, just tortured, you know, even in therapy after leaving those jobs because it's just not right the way that things went. So that's a big part of, I think, what has driven a lot of women out.

Chris Whyte (: 44:18

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 44:33

Beyond that, I've also known more than one woman who's been let go from an agency while she was pregnant or not offered the position back after trying to return from maternity leave in various agencies, right around the corners from my studio. it is tough. It is also tough being a mom and juggling all that it takes and a career.

It's not just like a nine to five always, you we try to keep the hours maintained well for my team, but you know, the passion sometimes makes you do things off a normal schedule. And that, you know, that can be tricky when you're trying to juggle your schedules and all that it takes. But I have also known a few other amazing women have done it, but I think it's especially hard if you want to have kids.

When you're working at agencies young in your career, I was most often working past midnight, burning the midnight oil. And how do you imagine being able to do that and raise a family at the same time? That's, I think, one of the factors that drives a lot of women out of the field, but also just how kind of intense the career can be.

I think that's it, but I'm also trying to make that very different at level. One of my key roles in the studio is operations. Design operations are incredible and important. So if you're running an agency and don't have one, you get one as soon as you can. But somebody that can really map out the schedule, make sure that there's a good amount of space for getting the deliverables done that doesn't require people.

Chris Whyte (: 46:06

Absolutely.

Nichole Rouillac (: 46:27

working the late nights and the week, I don't think we've almost never had to do work on the, I try to make sure that my team doesn't work on the weekends and things like that. I really tried to contain it and control that and have a lot of flexibility and understanding with my teams and their personal lives. And I think that helps to make the environment more suited for whether it's family or, you know, personal hobbies, but just making sure that we have a better life work balance.

really what I've been trying to push and how I position my studio as being different than what I've experienced in my past and early in my career.

Chris Whyte (: 47:06

Does that play into how you pitch to clients as well and engage with them? Are they understanding that, in my view, deadlines kind of create this kind of false and toxic kind of stress? And actually, rarely does missing a deadline kind of mean the end of the world. There's only very few occasions where that would be the case. But I guess it comes down to communication. And if the quality is there and

know it might take a little bit longer but the works better is that mean I know that kind of plays into I guess I know what they're getting when they're when they're working with you because it's kind of front and center of kind of your business and your brand isn't it but is that a conscious thing?

Nichole Rouillac (: 47:53

say, well, we never miss a client deadline and we always still get the work done. I think it's about first organization and planning, which I think, you know, having moms leading means that we do actually have to plan out those schedules and those deadlines properly to be able to still pick our kids up on time and things like that. So that organization part.

Chris Whyte (: 47:55

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 48:21

but also communication. making sure that we have those good relationships with our clients. You know, when things come up, it doesn't mean every once in a while somebody from my team won't work a little bit later or do things off the normal hours. They will, I think it's just about like, we have a lot of flexibility with our team and that kind of goes both ways. And I think that we also have really open channels of communication with among our team, but also with our clients.

So being able to talk through that and really understanding like how important is this deadline and if it needs to get done, you know, we'll figure out who from the team is actually able to put in a little bit extra and then we give back a little bit extra in the following days. But yeah, we find that striking that balance and communication and organization is what it really takes.

Chris Whyte (: 49:12

And yeah, the same could be be said for many walks of life, couldn't it? That's where most problems are caused by poor communication and planning. yeah, that's wonderful. And you purposely run a small, yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 49:15

Yes.

I'll

say as a mom, I'm often the one also for the household juggling the the calendars and every person that needs to go here and there and what needs to be bought for this and that sports or activity. you know, that type of planning sort of comes with the role both at work and home.

Chris Whyte (: 49:30

Yeah.

Yeah,

absolutely. know, running a business, raising kids, you mentioned you have a neurodivergent child as well. I mean, that's there's a lot to take on there. You know, all that and staying creative. I mean, it's not no small feat. So what strategies or habits kind of help you maintain balance?

Nichole Rouillac (: 50:05

Well, I'll say one of the things I do love about having my studio is also that my daughter has kind of grown up in the studio. Since she was, you know, three, she's been a part of level. My team knows her very well and loves her. So when I have to bring her in a little after school here and there, she just gets to see that like, design is a job. That's something I didn't get to learn when I was a kid. And for her to be exposed to

you know, she has certain challenges. Writing and reading are especially more difficult for her, but being able to have that exposure to see like, people can build things with their hands and the drawing and other, you know, other skills that can sort of make up for things she's not good at. She has a 98 % visual memory. So I think I've learned.

And I think a lot of designers work well with visuals too. So I think myself being a designer, I am able to help her a lot with homework. Her rewards chart that we're building that's very visual based and a lot less writing. There are tools that I as a designer am able to create for my daughter that help her in her education and just help her be inspired. she also...

Chris Whyte (: 51:04

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 51:28

It's really encouraging and I love to hear my children at the park getting to tell other little girls that their mom was a boss and know, that future generations will see that the world is their oyster and not have the limitations and I just love that I can be a part of that, building that for.

for my daughters, but for all the other young women out there.

Chris Whyte (: 52:00

That's amazing. I absolutely love that. And I think you might answer this, but, you know, there's a lot of your personal life going into that. How does that influence kind of your professional work? I'm guessing it doesn't. There isn't really a cutoff, is there? It is part of your professional life. Like you say, your daughter's there in the studio. I'm guessing your clients seem to have that great relationship and, you know, you're crossing over to kind of friendships and

Nichole Rouillac (: 52:20

Mm.

Chris Whyte (: 52:30

professional, know, I'm guessing it does influence it quite greatly, doesn't it, your professional work there.

Nichole Rouillac (: 52:37

Yeah, very much so. I love it that my team is small and it does feel like a family and they all know my children don't come in it every day. We do keep it professional. I think COVID was also at least helpful for that when people were on calls and saw the kids in the background that we do have personal lives and we also still get a lot of incredible work done and somehow

Chris Whyte (: 52:58

Mm-hmm.

Nichole Rouillac (: 53:07

those blend together. And it's just become very natural for my team and for my clients. And so I'm glad, I'm not glad that COVID happened, but I'm glad that that sort of changed people's mindset. You know, trying to kind of keep the family life so hidden.

Chris Whyte (: 53:22

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. mean, it's, you know, as awful as as COVID was, there is a lot of kind of positive outcomes from it. And in terms of Yeah, as we already discussed, so, and, you know, coming from kind of your personal situation, family of medical professionals, how has that kind of shaped your approach to designing healthcare products? We talked about kind of some of you kind of your projects in health and wellness, cardio, mobile, open water.

I guess it has shaped it.

Nichole Rouillac (: 54:00

Yeah, I mean,

it's funny because my mom actually wanted so bad for me to be a nurse. I actually feel like faintish. I'm going to pass out sometimes. It's not just like a little squeamish with blood. Like I do not do well as a mom to get over that sometimes. You know, I am not at all like one that's made to be a nurse. And but I do feel like

Chris Whyte (: 54:22

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 54:29

I also spent a lot of my childhood going to visit my mom in the hospital. She works in labor and delivery and nursery and getting to see the little babies. I absolutely loved it. So I think it just sparked my interest in the world of medical products and how I could use my design skills to help people, whether that's detecting diseases or helping to provide therapies when someone's ill.

was like a buzzword back in,: 2018

and heart attack and that really kind of set us on that path. And you know, when you're an agency, once you get like one good case study in a category, it can help open up doors to others. since then, we've been part of, you know, devices that have been fast tracked through FDA for sleep disorders. Now working with the infamous Mary Lou Jepson, who came from executive positions at both MEDA and Google and left.

Chris Whyte (: 55:35

Yeah.

Okay.

Nichole Rouillac (: 55:56

eight years ago to start her own med tech technology, which is open water. I've been helping with her team with Mary Lou and getting to work side by side with her and the team. And they're developing devices that are going to be able to detect and treat cancer, to be able to pinpoint cancerous cells without damaging the healthy tissue around them. The same technology is able to also recognize

Chris Whyte (: 56:07

Amazing.

I

Nichole Rouillac (: 56:26

the blood flow and strokes. So being able to recognize what type of stroke somebody's having so that they can get the right treatment to make sure that they don't have a lot of the lasting impacts if they're not treated properly, as well as mental health diseases and long COVID. It's incredible technology. It's essentially taking some of what happens in a million dollar MRI machine.

with her background in smartphones, she's on track to bring that down to about a thousand dollars. So pretty incredible that we get to be a part of this. mean, she's also somebody, know, as a woman in hardware, she's, you know, famous in Silicon Valley. So I'm also just so grateful to be able to look, to work with somebody that I've looked up to for my entire career and then to be able to help.

Chris Whyte (: 56:58

Wow, that's incredible. Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 57:20

bring this world-changing technology to market. It's incredible.

Chris Whyte (: 57:28

That's fantastic. I can tell you, you genuinely love what you do. It's so exciting. it's, yeah, it's great to see. So going back to the squeamishness then, I'm guessing with all the exciting stuff that you're doing and all the advances in advancements in technology and the good that you can do, I guess that kind of goes some way, doesn't it, to help you get over the squeamishness. You've got to put the squeamishness to one side to think of the greater good. But how do you deal with, how do you reconcile with that?

Nichole Rouillac (: 57:33

Thank you.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

would say luckily, I think I've been able to take this passion into the types of products that are less invasive. So I'm not necessarily working in the surgical environments. I have definitely had some startups with share their pitch decks with me that had imagery in them. It was on the screener side where I was like, please don't, please don't get sick. I'm going to get sick.

Chris Whyte (: 58:04

Yeah.

Okay, yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 58:25

Yeah, so I haven't had that exposure, but I would say luckily we're at this place and I see a lot of the tech coming out of Silicon Valley and the med space right now. There's so much being done with AI that's able to be used for detections and treatments that have never existed before. So it's such an exciting time to see what people are using.

Chris Whyte (: 58:45

That's the space you like, isn't it?

Nichole Rouillac (: 58:54

you know, taking this technology and, know, using, there's a lot of scary things about what's happening, but there are a lot of people using this tech for good and things that are really going to save and transform people's lives. So I absolutely love it. There's such an energy that I feel in the startup world right now. Going to like some nerdy AI health tech meetups, demo nights and seeing all that people are building. It's so cool.

Chris Whyte (: 59:03

Yeah.

Ha

That's awesome. That's awesome. Right. So let's talk about the future. Kind of for now we've got a few minutes left on the episode, but what's next for level? What kind of upcoming projects or directions that you're particularly excited about that you can share with us? Kind of what does the next six to 12 months look like?

Nichole Rouillac (: 59:43

There's a few things that we're going to start working in the climate tech space. That's an area that I really want to grow. As we've just recently seen the fires in LA, fires that have been happening around the world for the last few years being in California. I'm no stranger to this even in Northern California. know, there are things that need to be done so that...

Chris Whyte (: 59:57

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 1:00:13

we don't pollute so much. the climate tech work that's coming, I am thrilled to be a part of. I say we also have a lot of clients that are working on reducing single-use plastics, like reducing a changing entire behavioral patterns so that there is a lot less consumption and waste happening. So a big part of our personal passion as a studio and just our

desire to help the future of humanity. These are areas that I want to grow in, as well as continuing to use our med tech and health and wellness background to create products that are going to help people. Because these are not the easiest of times that we're living through. And I want to do what I can to use mine and my team's skills to do better for this world.

Chris Whyte (: 1:01:10

That's awesome. What a great mission to have. That's fantastic. We bumped into each other at CES. Is there anything that you saw there that you're particularly excited about going forward? I know we talked about there's a lot of same old, same old there, or same old new old there, but anything in particular? Catch your eye.

Nichole Rouillac (: 1:01:20

Thank you.

Yeah.

nce early in my career, early: 2000

Chris Whyte (: 1:01:46

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nichole Rouillac (: 1:02:03

And also having gone to CES for so long and finally having so many women that I knew in various leadership roles and we were hanging out and walking the floor together and going to happy hours together and to feel not alone. it was still not balanced, but you know, at least I couldn't find my female friends and you know, yeah. Yeah, pretty good.

Chris Whyte (: 1:02:19

I

There was a good representation

at the Spanner event where I bumped into you and it was, I think for me, we spoke earlier, there's a good kind of mood, there? was a good, after the last couple of years of kind of doldrums and kind of, you know, it's been savage, let's be honest, in industrial design last couple of years. But there seemed to be a lot of positivity, lot to be optimistic about.

Nichole Rouillac (: 1:02:43

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know that's the biggest takeaway for me is just like the energy that there is this shift in a good direction in terms of the economy after ID has just been brutally hit for a number of years now. I can't wait to see the upside of this and be a part of it. So hopefully that energy continues out of CES. I'm also feeling it since we got back in San Francisco.

Chris Whyte (: 1:03:24

Yeah, absolutely. Same here. So it's been absolutely wonderful having you on the show. So just final kind of parting, planning words, is there any, how do people get in touch with you? it of LinkedIn or your website the of the best route?

Nichole Rouillac (: 1:03:40

Yeah, those are definitely the best routes. We have an email address on our website. My studio manager answers that, which is probably better because or else it might get too buried in my inbox. So reach out to us there and LinkedIn, also Instagram. We're just posting some new work up there in next few days. So check it out.

Chris Whyte (: 1:04:01

Awesome. I'll make sure that we share the Instagram and LinkedIn everything on the show notes. But Nicole, it's been absolutely wonderful having you on the show. I've really enjoyed our conversation and thank you again.

Nichole Rouillac (: 1:04:13

Thanks Chris, it was great talking to you. Have a good one.

Chris Whyte (: 1:04:15

Likewise.

Chris Whyte (: 1:04:18

Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Why Design. If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to leave a review wherever you're listening. It really helps others discover the podcast. And while you're at it, why not share it with a friend or colleague who do enjoy it too. If you'd like to stay connected or explore more about the work we're doing at Kodu.

feel free to visit teamkodu.com or connect with me, Chris Whyte on LinkedIn. Thanks again for listening and I'll see you next time.