Why the Worst Thing You Can Do Is Be the Designer Everyone Wants You to Be | Dan Salisbury, Automata

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(Transcribed by TurboScribe. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Picture walking into a room full of engineers

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on your first day.

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Nobody knows what you do, nobody's worked with

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someone like you before, and the first thing

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someone asks you to do is pick a

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colour.

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I'm just here to pick the colour of

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whatever material you're trying to use on the

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prototype.

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In this episode I sit down with Dan

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Salisbury, someone who's spent over a decade at

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some of the most respected design consultancies in

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the country, then walked away from all of

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it to become the only industrial designer inside

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a startup building robotic lab systems.

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Recruit really good people and then trust them

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to do their job.

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Systems that are currently being used to profile

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cancer biopsies, accelerate drug discovery, and compress testing

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timelines that used to take weeks down to

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days.

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There's like 100% intent, like this has

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to launch, otherwise we collapse as a business

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kind of thing.

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That's design that isn't decorative, that's design that's

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consequential.

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He had to earn his place from day

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one, not with a portfolio, not with a

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pitch, just by doing the work and waiting

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for people to get it.

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Most of them didn't, until they did.

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Yeah it was like, I can have it,

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I can see the impact I can have

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here, and I really believe in what the

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product has the potential to do.

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And before any of that, there's the story

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of standing on a stage in front of

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one of the most iconic figures in design

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history, a project he'd rehearsed hundreds of times.

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Did it go the way he planned?

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Not quite.

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But what came next is something he hasn't

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forgotten.

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This is a conversation about belief, impact, and

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what it actually means to do design that

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matters.

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This is Y-Design.

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Dan Salisbury, welcome to Y-Design.

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Great to have you on the show.

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So you've spent over a decade working in

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consultancy at DCA and then Layer, before making

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the move over to, I'm going to get

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this wrong, automata or automator?

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Yeah, I got it wrong as well when

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I first joined.

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It's automata, it comes from automaton, some sort

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of Latin reference, I think.

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Automata, right.

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Okay, so I'm probably going to say that,

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you know, five different ways throughout this interview,

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but please do correct me.

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So automata, you spent just over three years

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there now.

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Before we kind of dive into how you've

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built out automata's hardware function from scratch, let's,

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you know, go back to a moment where

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everything shifted for you.

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You know, ten years in consultancy to then

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in-house.

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Was there a moment where you realized, automata,

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that this is going to be different from

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consultancy life?

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Yeah, I'd always had in the back of

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my mind about going in-house at some

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point.

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I think it kind of just depended on

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what it was that the company did, so

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it had to be something that I'd be

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interested in, that would excite me.

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Obviously, being a consultancy, you get exposed a

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lot to the ways of working with in

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-house companies.

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A lot of the clients with having consultancy

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will often have their own design teams, but

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they would tend to onboard agencies when they

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didn't have the bandwidth or they wanted to

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explore something about the kind of like red

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tape of a bigger in-house company.

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But I didn't want to be kind of

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like a cog in the machine, you know,

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just being part of a design team in

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some sort of like mega corporation.

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I think it was just timing, really, like

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the automata job, I saw it on LinkedIn.

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And the remit was, you know, we have

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this hardware product, but we don't have any

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industrial design.

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So the early remit was to basically come

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in, define a design language, define design principles,

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and then implement that in the product and

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get that product rolled out.

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And it was very rapid, like automata was

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a startup.

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So I think like the opportunity to fit

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impact was what attracted me.

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So yeah, I was like about three years

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into my time at Layer, and the job

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came up, saw the description, reasonably, you know,

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excited by it.

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So I just went for it.

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Because generally, I've always kind of followed my

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gut, what feels right, and what excites me.

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And it did.

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But there was other opportunities I was exploring

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there at the time that didn't quite feel

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right.

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So this one did.

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So yeah, a long way around of saying

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that's kind of, it just excited me when

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I saw the job description, really.

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We'll dive into that a little bit later,

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because I have a terrible habit of going

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completely off script after the first question.

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So we'll dive into that.

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But what did it feel like, you know,

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joining automata and to be the only designer

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in a deep tech lab surrounded by engineers

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and roboticists?

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Yeah, it was a bit, particularly from Layer,

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where you're going from somewhere which the entire

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team pretty much is industrial designers.

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I was then put into an environment where

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at the time when I joined, there was

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maybe about 30 people in the hardware team,

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kind of a mix of mechanical engineers, electronics,

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like software people.

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And they were all put in place to

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develop what was automata's products at the time,

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which is a robot arm.

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So it was all very much like, get

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this very complex, highly engineered thing into production.

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And nobody had ever worked with an industrial

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designer before.

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So there was a bit of a task

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in terms of people understanding what I did.

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I remember being asked in my first week

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to pick a color for something.

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I was like, I'm not just here to

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pick, you know, pick the color of whatever

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material you're trying to use on the prototype.

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So I feel like the bigger challenge really

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is like, trying to work and collaborate with

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people when they don't really understand what you've

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been born to do.

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I think really the only way you can

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explain it, you can describe it, you can

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run through your past experience, but the only

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real way is to actually just demonstrate it.

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So now three years in, like the engineers

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who are still here from when I first

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joined, you know, they get it now because

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they've seen the impact from like a prototype,

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which was very, you know, functional.

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Through to now, like we're on the second

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generation of what that's become.

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So I think now they definitely see like

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results of it.

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But yeah, it's just kind of more like

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demonstrate by doing.

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You can't really explain industrial design.

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It's hard to explain it.

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People don't quite get it.

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Yeah, it's coming from a consultancy background, especially

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layer where you're surrounded by design.

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You know, there's an assumption that people know

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what it is by osmosis, but yeah, surrounded

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by electronics and kind of engineers.

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But some probably don't see the point, you

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know, a lot of the time because, you

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know, they're the stuff that's making the magic

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happen.

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But was that hard, you know, those early

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days of kind of justifying your position?

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I think what made it easier was the

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design team.

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You know, like my boss who brought me

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in, who was the head of design, she's

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from a digital background, but she was great

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in terms of like, just bringing me in

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and trusting me as an expert in it,

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just let me hit the ground running.

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And then there was also a few of

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the UX designers and visual designer.

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And even though they're slightly different discipline, you

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know, they get it.

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So at least like I had like the

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like minded people around me.

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So that definitely helped.

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But it didn't really bother me in terms

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of, I guess, like trying to help people

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understand the role.

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Because like I said, like, it's a very,

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it's a start up, it's very fast paced.

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I just did what I do.

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And then the results kind of speak for

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themselves.

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And then people get it.

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And also, like, I've kind of, I think

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any industrial designers had this battle like their

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whole career with even, you know, engineers, or

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passing comments of like, I'll just make it

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look pretty, like that kind of thing, which

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always like gets under the skin of not

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just industrial designers, I guess, under the skin

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of the digital designers over with as well.

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And I've always had that battle.

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I had that battle at uni when there

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was like a BSc side of the course,

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which they would deride the BA side of

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the course a lot saying it's just about

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pretty pictures.

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I even had it, you know, a DCA

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from more of the engineering people, they just

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saw design as like a beautification exercise rather

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than anything else.

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But if you get it, you get it.

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That's fine.

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And it's fine if you don't get it.

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As long as you trust people to do

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their job.

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Slightly contentious one here.

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But what do you say to people who

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might refer to industrial designers as felt tip

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fairies?

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Because I've heard that kind of banded around

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many times throughout my career.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I mean, generally, I've always found like, if

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someone holds that opinion, you can never really

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change it.

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And even if you demonstrate otherwise, you still

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tend to get those, like sort of snippy

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comments from time to time.

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The way I always try and explain it,

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like when people say, I'm making it look

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pretty.

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The way I talk about it is it's

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giving something an identity.

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You know, it's not arbitrary.

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But it's not aesthetics for the sake of

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aesthetics, which like something, you know, like art

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would be, there's a meaning and a purpose

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and a rationale behind it.

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So, you know, I could talk for hours

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on like, the design language and the design

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strategy behind like automotive hardware and why everything

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has been treated how it is.

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And part of that design strategy is also

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taking into account, you know, the market we're

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in, differentiation from our competitors.

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Where it's a lot of the space we're

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in is like it's B2B and a lot

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of B2B products just have no consideration for

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like an end user and no consideration for

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industrial design.

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So those people working in those spaces to

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then bring a little bit of joy, bring

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a little bit of like, it's like higher

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quality execution and thought to things just makes

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their lives a bit better, even though they're

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not the end customer.

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And it also takes into account the manufacturing

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process we have to use.

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So like I've built a design language here,

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which we are low volume.

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So we're always driven down routes of like,

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you know, a lot of it is just

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anything you fabricate, CNC sheet or, you know,

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five axis and a bit of, yeah, it's

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basically the other, basically the two manufacturing processes

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we can use.

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And I've let into that for the design

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language as well.

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So that's kind of like the impact of

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what industrial design does.

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If it was felt it varies, it would

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just be like, oh, here's like a pretty

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picture of what a bench could be, but

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no thought about how to actually make it

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like on cost or deliver a good experience

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for the person using it.

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That's the added layer, isn't it?

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That's the bit that adds impact and value.

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It's the kind of the pretty bit, but

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then the actual functional, what the why bit

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and the how.

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So fantastic.

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Well, let's ask the podcast title question now.

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As I said, we've flipped things around slightly

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because we usually lead with this, but let's

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dive into your origin story and kind of,

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you know, why design?

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What led you down this path of industrial

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design in the first place?

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Yeah, I was thinking about this this morning,

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you know, with the podcast coming up and

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I was trying to go back.

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And I think it started, I remember in

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year, probably year eight, like secondary school, I

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don't know how old you are, like 12

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or 13, did some sort of like questionnaire

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about careers, you know, and I remember graphic

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design being one of the results of that

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questionnaire.

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Wasn't really something I was aware of at

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the time.

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I think when you're 12 or 13, you

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don't really think about the process behind that

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goes into everyday things and objects around the

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world.

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But like graphic design was maybe a bit

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more understandable.

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You know, logos, posters, that kind of stuff.

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So I kind of gravitate towards that initially.

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I would say as well, it also suggested

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like park ranger as one of the options

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as well.

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So I don't know how good this thing

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was.

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But at least I've seen the hat with

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your beard, you know, strong look.

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I don't know.

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There's probably some question about working outdoors or

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something.

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Maybe I said I'd be slightly interested in

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that.

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I don't know.

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That kind of planted the seed.

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And then my secondary school offered graphic design

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as a GCSE.

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So I just took it generally at school.

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I just took the subjects I was interested

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in.

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I didn't really think about it from like,

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what I want to do and all that

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point of view.

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It's just that I enjoy doing design.

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So out of like cooking and whatever the

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DT curriculum was, graphic design was the most

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prevalent one.

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It was like textiles or cooking with either

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options.

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So I was doing that GCSE.

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And then I just went to my local

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state comprehensive.

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But around that time, the school became a

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specialist technology college, which I still don't really

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know what it meant.

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But I think fundamentally, they got a bit

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more funding for design technology.

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So they actually offered as an A-level

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product design and technology, I think was the

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title.

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And this was before like UX and UI

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designers hijacked product design as a job title

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and job description.

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But really that was about, it was an

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industrial design GCSE and A-level essentially.

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You got to pick something to design, you

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run through that concept, you did a bit

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of model making, you presented it, you did

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a bit of design for manufacturing, cost analysis

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essentially.

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And my A-level teacher, again, I didn't

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really realize this was a thing you can

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do in the real world.

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But my A-level teacher at the time,

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Mr. Bird, he said, I think it was

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just a chat one time.

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I was good at it, I was getting

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good results and good marks.

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Then he said, you can go do this.

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And he pushed me towards, he went to

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Loughborough himself.

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He said, yeah, Loughborough is one of the

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best places.

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I think at the time, we're talking 2007,

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I think, around this time, 2007, 2008.

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So Loughborough, Brunel, and Northumbria were probably the

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three big universities at the time if you

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were going into design.

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I started going to open days.

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But he was the one who really made

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me realize that it was not just a

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job you could go and do, but actually

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something I was capable of going to do.

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So for me, I just enjoyed it.

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So I just followed it.

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From that point, I followed it to graphic

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design through to the design A-level, and

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then through to going and doing industrial design

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at Loughborough University.

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And really, like I said, I just followed

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what I enjoyed.

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Yeah, I think he's probably been the most

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impactful teaching figure, I guess, in my career

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and that kind of thing, exactly what a

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teacher should do.

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And sadly, he passed away suddenly a few

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years ago.

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And a bit of trivia, his son is

Speaker: 00:15:06

Max Bird, who plays for Bristol City now.

Speaker: 00:15:08

He was in the Derby Academy.

Speaker: 00:15:11

So yeah, so his son's a championship footballer.

Speaker: 00:15:15

But yeah, like he was a great, great

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source of, I guess, like helping me understand

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and pushing me in the right direction, seeing

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what I could do, I guess.

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So that's why design.

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And then from there, really, it's pretty, you

Speaker: 00:15:27

know, that focus is already narrowed.

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And, you know, I went to go to

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consultancy once I started to get towards the

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end of the course, and just for that

Speaker: 00:15:36

breadth of product exposure, ended up chatting to

Speaker: 00:15:40

DCA folk at the degree show at Loughborough,

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got the job at DCA, before I'd been

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there for a couple of years and had

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been there for seven years.

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But I moved down to London and joined

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Layer.

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And then, yeah, now three years at Layer,

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I hopped to Automata, where now I'm in

Speaker: 00:15:54

for another three years.

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So yeah, it moved back.

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I guess you would have been a year

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or two behind Benjamin Hubert at Loughborough.

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Yeah, I think then I remember seeing his

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sketches for his final year project up around

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what was the Bridgman Centre at the time.

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That's not there anymore.

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Yeah, he was probably, I think he graduated

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in 2008, maybe.

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I think he might graduate the year I

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started potentially.

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He's probably about 40 now.

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So yeah, he'll be maybe four or five

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years ahead of me.

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But yeah, I guess I was like, kind

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of aware of him from a very early

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point.

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And I'll be able to go to Loughborough

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as well.

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Did you work together at DCA or had

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he left by that point?

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No, he left before I started.

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But again, he'd definitely left his mark at

Speaker: 00:16:44

DCA on some of the projects.

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Yeah.

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That's cool.

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It's interesting how these things overlap.

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I've got a friend who studied in the

Speaker: 00:16:52

same cohort as Benjamin and they've gone in

Speaker: 00:16:55

completely different paths.

Speaker: 00:16:56

Paul's gone down more of a manufacturing route

Speaker: 00:17:00

in the Midlands.

Speaker: 00:17:01

And then Benjamin's obviously doing this very exciting

Speaker: 00:17:05

projects down in London.

Speaker: 00:17:06

Let me pause here for a moment.

Speaker: 00:17:08

Most of the leaders on this podcast did

Speaker: 00:17:09

not grow because they hired quickly.

Speaker: 00:17:12

They grew because they hired well.

Speaker: 00:17:14

The right senior engineer can accelerate a hardware

Speaker: 00:17:18

roadmap by a year.

Speaker: 00:17:19

The wrong one can stall it.

Speaker: 00:17:22

At KODU, we help physical product teams make

Speaker: 00:17:24

that hire with clarity and precision.

Speaker: 00:17:27

If you're about to make a key design

Speaker: 00:17:29

or engineering hire or thinking about your own

Speaker: 00:17:31

next move, reach out to me on LinkedIn.

Speaker: 00:17:34

Let's talk before you commit.

Speaker: 00:17:37

When you look back, Dan, at your early

Speaker: 00:17:39

years at DCA, what kind of designer were

Speaker: 00:17:42

you then?

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I'll be honest, I wasn't very good.

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In terms of, I often joke, I did

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a lot of recruitment.

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Like a bit later on at DCA, I

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did a lot of recruitment.

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I did a lot of recruitment at Layer

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as well.

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So seeing lots of portfolios.

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The bit I always took in the back

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of my mind was I was dismissing portfolios

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or rejecting them and stuff when they were

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far better than what I was doing at

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that age.

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But I think also, I think the tool

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sets changed and I think the bar has

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just risen.

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I think particularly, there was no real rendering

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when I was around the time of graduation.

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KeyShot didn't exist.

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And I think that and some of the

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CAD tools have gotten way easier to use.

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So now you are seeing much more polished,

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refined designs.

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I think also where you can see inspiration

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has changed.

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There was no Pinterest and that kind of

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stuff when I was doing this kind of

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stuff.

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But yeah, my portfolio was quite weak looking

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back at what it was when I graduated.

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But I think it was more from how

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I was presenting the work and the things

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I was talking about.

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And also just my approach to styling.

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I think I used to overcomplicate the way

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I was approaching form and detailing.

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It was too complex.

Speaker: 00:19:05

I think the hardest thing to do as

Speaker: 00:19:06

an illustrator is kind of restraint, but restraint

Speaker: 00:19:09

in a compelling way without it looking basic

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or simple.

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But I think there was enough there that

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they saw, I guess, potential.

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I did my placement year at Diageo.

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So Umbrella Corporation, you were in lots, you

Speaker: 00:19:26

know, Smirnoff, Ginnett, Johnnie Walker.

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So there was a lot of like primary

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packaging and one-off like airport duty-free

Speaker: 00:19:33

type things I was working on there for

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like Johnnie Walker and that kind of stuff.

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So there was a bit of FMCG packaging.

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So coming out of uni, I remember like

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the packaging department at Seymour Powell, I interviewed

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there.

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They made it very clear that if you

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join the packaging team, it's not a shortcut

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to joining their like ID team because they

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had different teams.

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But then also GCA, you know, with their

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clients, a lot of their clients being like

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GSK and Reckitt Benckiser and a few of

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the FMCG brands.

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I think they saw that and were like,

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okay, that could be useful.

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And Tip Sharp was the head of design

Speaker: 00:20:10

at GCA at the time and he brought

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me in.

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I think like to answer your initial question,

Speaker: 00:20:16

I think I was probably not confident enough

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to stick to what I felt comfortable with.

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So I was trying to be the kind

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of designer that I was seeing the other

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designers at GCA being, which was like a

Speaker: 00:20:27

lot of, you know, everyone at GCA at

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that time had a giant Wacom tablet.

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So a lot of the work would be

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in the early, like the first stages of

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work would be really beautiful, like Wacom digital

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sketches.

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But I've never really been that strong at

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sketching, not from a presentation point of view,

Speaker: 00:20:42

like I'll sketch rough and dirty.

Speaker: 00:20:45

But I've always been really strong and really

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quick in CAD.

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So I can visualize head very well in

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3D.

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And I would just like, now, I just

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jump into CAD, I can mock something in

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CAD and render it quicker than I could

Speaker: 00:20:56

like do layers and layers of sketching.

Speaker: 00:20:58

And I think the industry has now shifted

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towards that.

Speaker: 00:21:00

But at the time, it was still a

Speaker: 00:21:02

bit more traditional focus where you would present

Speaker: 00:21:04

sketches in like a first phase.

Speaker: 00:21:07

And I was struggling with that.

Speaker: 00:21:08

And like the feedback I would get would

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be like, yeah, I was on, I almost

Speaker: 00:21:12

didn't pass my probation period.

Speaker: 00:21:14

Oh, really?

Speaker: 00:21:15

Yeah, there was a bit of debate around

Speaker: 00:21:16

the time.

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You know, again, I was showing promise, but

Speaker: 00:21:19

not quite enough.

Speaker: 00:21:20

And then I really hit the ground running

Speaker: 00:21:21

at DCA when I kind of ignored the

Speaker: 00:21:23

feedback around, don't go into CAD too early.

Speaker: 00:21:26

And all this kind of stuff.

Speaker: 00:21:26

So I decided, okay, I'm going to go

Speaker: 00:21:28

into CAD.

Speaker: 00:21:28

And then I'll sketch over it.

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You know, I then just like use my

Speaker: 00:21:31

skill set to then help support the projects.

Speaker: 00:21:34

So that took a couple of years like

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to kind of get to that level of

Speaker: 00:21:38

confidence.

Speaker: 00:21:38

But once I kind of embraced, like I

Speaker: 00:21:41

just played to my strengths.

Speaker: 00:21:43

I think eventually the feedback of like, oh,

Speaker: 00:21:46

Dan jumps into CAD too early and like

Speaker: 00:21:47

my performance reviews and stuff that stopped coming

Speaker: 00:21:49

because they realized that actually, that's like how

Speaker: 00:21:51

I work.

Speaker: 00:21:52

And then for the end of everyone, I

Speaker: 00:21:53

would have to take a layer, like the

Speaker: 00:21:55

first phases of, even towards the end of

Speaker: 00:21:57

DCA, like first phase presentations would be like

Speaker: 00:22:00

photo realistic renders of like the perfect detail

Speaker: 00:22:03

CAD and everything.

Speaker: 00:22:04

That's just like the way it's moved to

Speaker: 00:22:05

now.

Speaker: 00:22:07

So yeah, any advice I'd give to anyone

Speaker: 00:22:10

is just like stick to your strengths.

Speaker: 00:22:12

Don't try and be like other designers because

Speaker: 00:22:15

everyone's different and how they approach problems.

Speaker: 00:22:18

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker: 00:22:19

I mean, I've agonized over this over the

Speaker: 00:22:22

years when you're building teams and everyone's got

Speaker: 00:22:25

their own strengths, but as a consequence, they've

Speaker: 00:22:29

got gaps.

Speaker: 00:22:30

They've got weak areas that they're not so

Speaker: 00:22:31

strong in.

Speaker: 00:22:33

And when I was kind of a young

Speaker: 00:22:36

manager trying to train someone on something that

Speaker: 00:22:39

they weren't particularly good at all, probably weren't

Speaker: 00:22:42

that bothered about really.

Speaker: 00:22:43

They didn't see the point of it because

Speaker: 00:22:44

they were really good in other areas.

Speaker: 00:22:46

And as soon as I started, someone said

Speaker: 00:22:49

to me, why are you wasting so much

Speaker: 00:22:51

energy trying to force this person to be

Speaker: 00:22:54

someone that they don't want to be?

Speaker: 00:22:56

If I just make the most out of

Speaker: 00:22:59

what they're really good at, if they're good

Speaker: 00:23:00

for the business, and then you can find

Speaker: 00:23:03

other people or you can compensate in other

Speaker: 00:23:05

areas because you've got a good blend in

Speaker: 00:23:07

the team.

Speaker: 00:23:08

So as soon as I realized that, it

Speaker: 00:23:10

reduced a lot of stress for me personally

Speaker: 00:23:12

because it's like, well, that person is going

Speaker: 00:23:15

to be less annoyed because they're doing something

Speaker: 00:23:17

they don't enjoy that they're all good at

Speaker: 00:23:19

and they're going to be happy doing the

Speaker: 00:23:21

things that they're good at.

Speaker: 00:23:22

And I can turn my attention to encouraging

Speaker: 00:23:25

that and getting them better at the things

Speaker: 00:23:26

they're good at.

Speaker: 00:23:27

So yeah, I love that.

Speaker: 00:23:30

You mentioned that you met Dieter Rams.

Speaker: 00:23:33

Yes.

Speaker: 00:23:33

In your career as well.

Speaker: 00:23:35

How did meeting him kind of shape your

Speaker: 00:23:37

idea of what good design means?

Speaker: 00:23:41

Um, yeah, even now, it was like I

Speaker: 00:23:43

realized it's actually 10 years ago.

Speaker: 00:23:45

Yeah, it was 2015.

Speaker: 00:23:47

So there was something called, I can't remember

Speaker: 00:23:50

the order of these things, but I think

Speaker: 00:23:52

something that DCA worked quite good at was

Speaker: 00:23:54

if people had ideas, they'd let them explore

Speaker: 00:23:56

concepts.

Speaker: 00:23:59

And if those concepts were kind of like

Speaker: 00:24:02

compelling, they would fund like submissions to design

Speaker: 00:24:05

awards.

Speaker: 00:24:05

So, you know, I did get a couple

Speaker: 00:24:07

of IFs and red dots for concepts we

Speaker: 00:24:10

worked up.

Speaker: 00:24:10

And, you know, they're not cheap, but, you

Speaker: 00:24:12

know, DCA were good at investing in that.

Speaker: 00:24:14

And, you know, for me to go to

Speaker: 00:24:16

the awards ceremony sometimes and that kind of

Speaker: 00:24:19

thing.

Speaker: 00:24:20

But like, I think this one came about

Speaker: 00:24:21

was there's a guy called James May.

Speaker: 00:24:23

He's still at DCA now, and he predominantly

Speaker: 00:24:26

works in, like, I can't see, forgot.

Speaker: 00:24:30

It's like basically B2B, side of the business,

Speaker: 00:24:33

I think it's called now.

Speaker: 00:24:36

He had this idea to do a fuse

Speaker: 00:24:37

box.

Speaker: 00:24:39

I think his idea was, why can't the

Speaker: 00:24:43

fuse box be used to like actually monitor

Speaker: 00:24:44

your energy consumption?

Speaker: 00:24:47

I think that was kind of like the,

Speaker: 00:24:48

like I said, the light bulb, the light

Speaker: 00:24:49

bulb he had.

Speaker: 00:24:51

And when I heard this, it was one

Speaker: 00:24:52

of those ones where just the idea of

Speaker: 00:24:54

like how to do that almost just came

Speaker: 00:24:56

fully formed into my head.

Speaker: 00:24:57

Like I barely did any, you know, I'll

Speaker: 00:24:59

talk about jumping into CAD.

Speaker: 00:25:00

I pretty much like jumped into CAD.

Speaker: 00:25:01

I think I did two options and I

Speaker: 00:25:03

just went with one of them.

Speaker: 00:25:04

And that one was the one that I

Speaker: 00:25:06

visualized pulled together into like the submission.

Speaker: 00:25:09

And I think originally I was just pulling

Speaker: 00:25:10

it together to sort of submit to a

Speaker: 00:25:12

Red Dot concept or something.

Speaker: 00:25:14

And, you know, I went with James on

Speaker: 00:25:15

that and there was a couple of other

Speaker: 00:25:17

guys who supported from electronics point of view,

Speaker: 00:25:20

like some of the electronics engineers, a chap

Speaker: 00:25:22

called Charles Sparrow.

Speaker: 00:25:24

Worked it up.

Speaker: 00:25:25

And then I think at the time, I

Speaker: 00:25:27

just saw, you know, there was the Braun

Speaker: 00:25:28

Prize, 2015 Braun Prize.

Speaker: 00:25:30

I think the Braun Prize, they only do

Speaker: 00:25:32

it every three years, I think.

Speaker: 00:25:34

It's not like an annual thing.

Speaker: 00:25:35

And it's also, you don't pay to play,

Speaker: 00:25:37

you know, like Red Dot and IF, you

Speaker: 00:25:39

know, you pay to enter that you pay

Speaker: 00:25:40

even more if you win.

Speaker: 00:25:42

This one was, they pick just three, like

Speaker: 00:25:46

out of the submissions, they pick the top

Speaker: 00:25:48

three.

Speaker: 00:25:49

And then you get to go, you'd go

Speaker: 00:25:51

to Germany, go to the Braun HQ and

Speaker: 00:25:53

then present.

Speaker: 00:25:54

And then the audience then votes for gold,

Speaker: 00:25:56

silver, bronze, essentially.

Speaker: 00:25:57

And they have like, there's a professional category,

Speaker: 00:25:59

a student category and like a hobbyist enthusiast

Speaker: 00:26:02

category, something like that.

Speaker: 00:26:03

And the Braun Prize came active.

Speaker: 00:26:06

And the theme for that year was the

Speaker: 00:26:09

extra in the ordinary.

Speaker: 00:26:10

So ordinary objects, which maybe have become maligned,

Speaker: 00:26:13

not really thought about too much.

Speaker: 00:26:15

Like the fuse box was just like perfect

Speaker: 00:26:17

for it.

Speaker: 00:26:17

Like something that's never really been thought about

Speaker: 00:26:19

in terms of how it's designed.

Speaker: 00:26:21

So we submitted it, waited a few minutes

Speaker: 00:26:24

and then yeah, got an email, came through

Speaker: 00:26:25

saying like, you know, congratulations, you're in the

Speaker: 00:26:29

last three.

Speaker: 00:26:30

So I think it was something that has

Speaker: 00:26:31

like, there's maybe 3,000 submissions or something.

Speaker: 00:26:34

We've got the last three for the concept.

Speaker: 00:26:36

Um, so then yeah, we made a model

Speaker: 00:26:40

of it, did some animations to like take

Speaker: 00:26:43

to the show.

Speaker: 00:26:46

And then Dieter Rams was there, you know,

Speaker: 00:26:48

he was part of the audience, he was

Speaker: 00:26:49

part of the jury, not for the actual

Speaker: 00:26:52

deciding the last three, but he was there

Speaker: 00:26:54

to like vote on it on the last

Speaker: 00:26:55

day.

Speaker: 00:26:55

And he was like sat in front row.

Speaker: 00:26:57

And again, credit to DCA, you know, I

Speaker: 00:26:59

was 25 at the time, I was a

Speaker: 00:27:01

mid weight designer.

Speaker: 00:27:03

And Nick Bible, who's the director at DCA,

Speaker: 00:27:07

he let me present.

Speaker: 00:27:09

I think like, but the companies may be

Speaker: 00:27:11

like, you know, this, you know, the creative

Speaker: 00:27:13

director or someone senior or lead would then

Speaker: 00:27:15

take that responsibility.

Speaker: 00:27:16

But they let me present the project to,

Speaker: 00:27:20

you know, Dieter Rams and an auditorium of

Speaker: 00:27:23

around, I don't know, 200 odd people, which

Speaker: 00:27:27

was a very interesting experience.

Speaker: 00:27:30

It's probably the most practiced I've ever been.

Speaker: 00:27:33

Normally my presentation starts, I don't rehearse, I

Speaker: 00:27:36

don't script it, because then it feels forced.

Speaker: 00:27:39

But this one we ran through hundreds of

Speaker: 00:27:40

times before the show.

Speaker: 00:27:44

And yeah, when I did the presentation, we

Speaker: 00:27:46

came second.

Speaker: 00:27:48

The thing that won was a life jacket.

Speaker: 00:27:50

So I think like monitoring energy versus saving

Speaker: 00:27:53

someone's life, you know, that's always going to

Speaker: 00:27:55

win that kind of thing.

Speaker: 00:27:57

And then yeah, in the after party, I

Speaker: 00:27:58

think at the time Dieter would have been

Speaker: 00:28:00

maybe 85, something like that.

Speaker: 00:28:02

And he had this like really beautifully made

Speaker: 00:28:05

walking stick, which apparently people always ask him

Speaker: 00:28:06

where he got it, but apparently someone made

Speaker: 00:28:08

it for him.

Speaker: 00:28:09

And he was like joining in in the

Speaker: 00:28:12

party essentially, you know, he was stopping for

Speaker: 00:28:14

photos and there was lots of like students

Speaker: 00:28:16

there and younger designers all having photos with

Speaker: 00:28:18

him.

Speaker: 00:28:19

He shook my hand, he said congratulations.

Speaker: 00:28:21

We had a brief chat.

Speaker: 00:28:22

And yeah, it's one of those things where

Speaker: 00:28:23

it's just the end, even now it just

Speaker: 00:28:24

feels a bit surreal that I met him.

Speaker: 00:28:28

But also one of the jury was Benjamin

Speaker: 00:28:31

Hubert.

Speaker: 00:28:32

So that was my first exposure, like direct

Speaker: 00:28:34

exposure with him.

Speaker: 00:28:35

So I met him then.

Speaker: 00:28:37

So at least he was, when I did

Speaker: 00:28:39

actually approach Lair eventually, he was already aware

Speaker: 00:28:41

of me.

Speaker: 00:28:43

So it was quite a few years that

Speaker: 00:28:45

I actually made the move to Lair after

Speaker: 00:28:46

that.

Speaker: 00:28:47

But yeah, it was just, I still don't

Speaker: 00:28:49

think there's ever going to be something in

Speaker: 00:28:52

my career that would top that in terms

Speaker: 00:28:54

of when else do you ever get to

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meet Dieter Rams.

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It was like the point of it.

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So yeah, it was, and you also presented

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him.

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So yeah, that was a really, really quite

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amazing thing to do with Shaker.

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So it just still feels bizarre.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's a, it's a top recruiting

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strategy from Benjamin as well, isn't it?

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Set on a jury and then, you know,

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just keep tabs on the top three.

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But yeah, what a pivotal moment for you.

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That's amazing.

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So yeah, well, let's talk about the shift

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then from consultancy to automata.

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Told you I'd struggle with that.

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So after spending over a decade in agency

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and then jumping into automata, what was it

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that kind of, that cemented that leap for

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you?

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You mentioned that the advert stood out.

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You were clearly open to opportunities by the

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kind of towards the end of your time

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at Lair.

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But what was it specific, specifically about automata

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that really grabbed you?